Próspera is a budding platform city on the Honduran Island of Roatán operating under the Zone for Employment and Economic Development (ZEDE) framework. The city aims to provide a place where entrepreneurs and businesses can work freely and efficiently. In this episode, Jackson sits down with co-Founder and Chief Development Officer of Próspera, Gabriel Delgado, about the project. They talk about the city’s goals, the ZEDE system, the considerations that come with being in Honduras, the stage Próspera is at right now, and the government rhetoric surrounding the project.
**None of our neighborhoods are as tropical as Roatán quite yet. If you know one, refer them to us! You’ll also get our email newsletter packed with Cabin news and ways to get involved with the community. **
https://open.spotify.com/episode/3iQ35WAKZOsQbZAPR5UMCi?si=5be6769655a346a9
Topics Covered:
Introduction to Prospera and the Vision — (2:36)
Cities that Inspired Próspera — (7:10)
What Próspera wants to take from Hong Kong, Singapore, and Dubai — (8:55)
ZEDE Framework in Honduras — (12:10)
Regime Uncertainty in Honduras — (14:50)
Gabriel’s Role as Chief Development Officer — (16:30)
Sustainable Development and Building Progress — (18:35)
Próspera’s Location on the Honduran Mainland — (21:25)
Incentives and Regulatory Environments — (22:40)
Próspera Residency Systems — (26:45)
Rhetoric and Challenges for Próspera — (29:00)
Considering the Islanders — (31:05)
Want to learn more about what new technologies are waiting to be released? Follow us on Twitter or join our Discordto find out what's in store for us and how we make use of Web3 in both digital and physical space. See you at the next Campfire 🏕️🔥.
Episode Links:
Learn more at Prospera's website at prospera.hn and check out on-site residence options at https://www.dunaresidences.com/why-choose-us
Gabriel on Twitter and LinkedIn
Episode Credit:
Hosted by @JacksonSteger
Sound Engineering by @Prodcolin
Videos and Clips by @McdonnellCallum
Produced by @PhilippeIze
Distribution by @Alisonclaire and @PhilippeIze
Transcript:
[00:00:00] Jackson Steger: Good evening, everyone. This is Jackson Steger. I hope that your AirPods are fully charged. You're listening to Season 2 of Campfire.
[00:00:10] This season of Campfire seeks to understand how to build new cities. Each week we are joined by experts and practitioners from different startup cities who will share the stories and lessons that they have learned from experimenting with radical new ways of living.
[00:00:23] Cabin is building its own network city, which you can learn more about by visiting www.creatorcabins.com or by following us @CreatorCabins. Today's guest is Gabrielle Delgado, the Chief Development Officer of Próspera. Próspera is a private charter city and economic zone located on the island of Roatan, off the coast of Honduras in Central America. As you'll hear, this city building effort is inspired by the special economic statuses that Dubai and Hong Kong benefited from in the last half century.
[00:00:54] In this episode, we discussed Próspera’s delicate, if not special, relationship with the Honduran government, Gabe's role as the chief development officer, building sustainable development, cultivating international trust, and also how Próspera serves as a platform city.
[00:01:08] On a personal note, I visited Honduras several times over a decade ago while I was living in Guatemala. I remembered Roatan as a hidden gem, a beautiful jungle island with crystal clear water and a vibrant coral reef. It's where I learned how to throw a Frisbee, and I really am fond of my time there. Today, it's still relatively sparsely populated with only 50,000 people spread across 32 square miles. I applaud Próspera’s ambition, thoughtfulness, and progress thus far. I hope that they, and others who choose to develop new cities, always continue to do so in a way that is sustainable and equitable for the people and the ecosystems with which they collaborate. You can learn more about Próspera by checking out www.próspera.hn and by following them on socials at @ProsperaGlobal. All right, time for the episode.
[00:02:01] All right, Gabriel Delgado, welcome to Campfire.
[00:02:04] Gabriel Delgado: Thank you very much. Call me Gabe, please, and I'm super excited to be here.
[00:02:08] Jackson Steger: We're really excited to have you. For context, we've been talking about different kinds of startup cities, the many flavors that they take. One of our recent guests, Zach Caceres, described Próspera as a platform city, and so, excited to talk about all things related to that. But before we get into specific definitions and lenses through which you can discuss Próspera, I want to just give you the floor to tell our audience, this is first time really discussing it in detail, what is Próspera, where is it, and if you're wildly successful in your ambitions, what does the world look like in the next 50 years?
[00:02:45] Gabriel Delgado: Wow, sounds good. So, I'm the co-founder and chief development officer of Próspera. I'm originally from Guatemala, which is a country right next door to Honduras where the project is taking place. It's on an amazing island, called Roatan, which it's hard to understand about Roatan. It's beautiful. It's mountainous. It's large. It's just slightly bigger than the original island of Hong Kong. So, let me tell you two things. One, what really makes me passionate about the project and what it is we're setting out to do, and I think you also said something about what does the world look in 50 years if we're wildly successful.
[00:03:18] So, what makes me be and feel very passionate about this is I think that the world has been, in some areas, incredibly successful and has advanced very rapidly, especially in the digital space. But I think in the world of Adams, the world has taken a turn for a cautious perspective of how to deal with the world and to deal with innovation and to deal with solving the world's most pressing problems. And that is called cost basic stagnation in the world of Adams. I recently read a book that some of your audience may have read, maybe you read, called ‘Where Is My Flying Car?’. And I just love that book so much. The thing that hit me really hard was, hell yeah, I want my flying car. Where is it?
[00:03:58] And the beauty of Próspera, you call this a platform city, and that's exactly what we are. We're a platform. And we want to bring the guys/gals that want to innovate and push really hard against these problems, solve them by providing them with an environment that's very conducive to innovation, where external obstacles brought up by regulation that's overly overbearing, if you want, is out of the way. You can take risk, you can challenge the status quo of things, and you can bring a ton of value, just a ton of value, in a manner that maybe we haven't seen in a long, long time. They're very innovative places around the world. I'm not saying they're not, but I think that we have a very important role, especially in the Western Hemisphere, to do that. And that's super exciting to me. Super exciting to me. I really enjoy meeting all the entrepreneurs that are coming, the ones with very well-formed ideas, the ones that have already started, and the ones that are just starting.
[00:04:58] And I'll tell you, the effect of that innovation and of bringing these companies to Próspera and to Roatan in Honduras is just the creation of enormous amounts of opportunities for the locals, which is the other thing that I'm passionate about. So, imagine a world where people, rather than having to migrate to the U.S., Canada, Europe, they just migrate locally within their own country to a city nearby that is like Próspera that's being successful and attractive, enormous amounts of capital, and just offering and teeing up opportunities here. And then you go visit your grandmother locally and rather than not seeing her in 10 years, which is basically what happens today. Plus, the whole risk of traveling up there, the extortion. We saw those people baking in the containers up in Texas. I don’t know if you’ve heard of that story, but I was just aghast at that. And so, that's the other part, that to me solving that just fills me up with a lot of energy.
[00:05:51] And then how do I see, if we're successful, what does the world look like in 50 years? First of all, I think we've already been very successful because we moved the needle the furthest that it's ever been moved, probably within the last 50 years for sure, if not more, in terms of what new governance looks like and/or better governance looks like and how aligning the incentives so that the system works better looks.
[00:06:17] And so, what does the world look like? I think we have a network of cities. You know, Balaji has just done an amazing job with the network state, but I do see a network of states of cities competing with each other very, very intensely. And I do see different models coming up, people that like even in Honduras, there were three different types of ZEDEs, which is a type of zone that we're in. One was completely agriculturally focused. The other one was more industrially and residentially focused. At Próspera, which is more of, Próspera is much more broader in scope and really aims to provide almost full substitution of the regulatory stock that we currently encounter. So, if we continue to be successful in accelerating our success, I see a network of cities that are driving innovation and a new golden age for the world. So, I can't wait. I plan to hang around to see it all happen.
[00:07:07] Jackson Steger: Awesome. I look forward to it as well. I'm curious, like you mentioned Hong Kong briefly. What are the cities, the economic zones, or the other projects that inspired something like Próspera? Is it accurate to characterize your mission to be like the Singapore or the Hong Kong of Latin America, or what part of that would you maybe disagree with?
[00:07:27] Gabriel Delgado: I think that we do compare ourselves to those cities. Singapore is a little bit different because it is a nation. We're not a nation. We work in partnership with the host nations where our cities are. Today's day and age, super hard to go and try to carve out a new country, and we're not at all about doing that. We're about partnering with countries and providing them with solutions that they desperately need to drive innovation and opportunities and investment at the end of the day, which drives those opportunities. But we do compare ourselves to Singapore, to Hong Kong, to Dubai. Dubai is one of our favorites because it just happened so recently and it's happening within the United Arab Emirate. Hong Kong is a great one too because it's part of China again.
[00:08:10] So, it shows that you can flex your sovereignty within a country by having multiple different systems operating within the same country. One of the things we're accused of is of stealing sovereignty from these countries where we try and operate in, and nothing could be further from the truth. I think it's the best show of sovereign power, to say that you can have multiple systems operating within your own country, and then take the best of each system to more broadly distribute within that same country.
[00:08:38] Jackson Steger: I definitely want to talk about the ZEDE framework and how you're partnered with the Honduran government right now. But before we go into those details, just what are the characteristics of Dubai or of Singapore or of Hong Kong that you aspire to have? What are the things that you admire about those, beyond just the phrase you used with flexing sovereignty? What is it about their growth or their development that you admire?
[00:09:03] Gabriel Delgado: Sure. So, if you look at the history of Hong Kong and Singapore in particular, those are the ones I remember the most. And you compare them to the Central American countries. Back in the 1950s, the GDP per capita was about the same. Suddenly these two locations did something, and let's call it something, I don't know what we want to call it, but suddenly, boom, they were off the charts in terms of GDP per capita, which is a measure of wealth. It's not a perfect measure of wealth, but it's a pretty good proxy. It shows us the general direction of where the country is going. Whereas the Central American countries, other Latin American countries, just barely grew at a super slow clip, 2% to 4% a year. And you have to ask yourself, we were in the same place just a few years ago, at this point 70 years ago, but what happened?
[00:09:48] And so, we want to very carefully analyze that because it's clear that they did something, that if the rest of the developing world did, potentially we could catalyze their countries as well. In Singapore, Hong Kong, there was a policy that the British had in Hong Kong that I'm going to botcher here and I apologize, but it's something like interested disintervention. So, it's like they were interested, but they were going to intervene very much. They just made sure that the certain basic rules that they wanted to have there functioned. And that worked quite well because the regulatory environment was not (00:10:21) fully.
[00:10:22] Singapore did something similar. Lee Kuan Yew, of course, is a different scenario because he was the strong man of Singapore, but he had very clear ideas of what needed to be put in place, what was the regulatory infrastructure, the framework that needed to be put in place so people could get along and the investment would happen. And really it's very simple, not only do you have to have good, simple rules, but you also have to have an enforcement mechanism, so that if there is a conflict, that conflict can be resolved in a manner that's quick and cost effective.
[00:10:53] And then commerce is one of these things that's very ingrained into our blood as human beings, as Homo sapiens. So, we'll go out there, we'll make deals. And then if you can uphold those deals, people look at that and say, wow, there's a place where I can go do a deal. If somebody tries to screw me over, they're going to get hit with a penalty, so I'll get my money back. And basically, what you're doing in essence is decreasing external risk.
[00:11:14] So, Dubai basically realized that they had a similar problem with Sharia law not being as inviting to investment. And so, basically, I think the biggest thing that they did is they introduced a ton of special economic zones, there’s not just one economic zone in Dubai, but they have the Privy Council of the U.K. They had the Privy Council of the U.K. being a final adjudicating body and conflict, and that just drove so much trust in the system, that now are just leaders in so many segments, that it’s quite amazing.
[00:11:44] And the other thing that's amazing to me is Hong Kong took about 50 years to get to where they wanted to get. Singapore took about 30 years, and then Dubai, took them 15. So, we're trying to emulate Dubai to get there in a manner that's superfast and just provide that great space to live, work, play, grow, meet amazing people. Yeah. So, I would say that's what I see about those places.
[00:12:07] Jackson Steger: So now I do want to ask, you mentioned Dubai had its several different special economic zones. What is the ZEDE framework? What does ZEDE stand for? How is it protected or not protected by the Honduran government? And how is Próspera designing its city to benefit from this framework?
[00:12:29] Gabriel Delgado: Sure. So, ZEDE is Z-E-D-E. So, it stands for Zone for Economic Development and Employment. And basically, it's an acronym in Spanish, Zonas de Empleo y Desarrollo Económico. It was put together by some pretty amazing guys, so a legal framework in the country. So, what they did is they amended their constitution, and they created a regulatory framework that would allow for private promoters and organizers to come and set up these entities to operate a zone. And the zone, very importantly, was not government-granted land. It was a land that you had to buy as an investor. They didn't give you anything. The reason these guys did it that way was because these models that we were just discussing, they understood Dubai, they understood Hong Kong, they understood Singapore, but they also understood that there was not a lot of capital here within Honduras. So, they needed to harness international capital. And they also understood that probably as soon as it was launched, it was going to be under significant attack. And so, they created a framework that allowed for private promoters to set up systems similar to those that we've been talking about and to have tremendous legal protection, international legal protection.
[00:13:43] And so, Próspera is a U.S.-based company with mostly U.S.-based investors. So, we have investors from all over the world. And the entity that invested here is protected under a number of international treaties, including CAFTA, including a treaty with Kuwait, and the constitutional amendment, the Constitution of Hondurans has a provision that if an amendment is repealed, it doesn't apply to those parties that were previously approved under that constitutional amendment. We have a legal stability agreement with the government as well.
[00:14:14] So, legally it's super well protected, and I think we set it up in a way that was very consciously so because we know that, at some point, we would have a government that was not going to be positively inclined. And I think that these guys so far have not been positively inclined because in politics you always have the zero-sum game. If I'm for something, my opposition cannot be afforded too. So, you get boxed in to these perspectives, and then you have to go through them and defend them.
[00:14:43] Jackson Steger: Yeah. Just for the audience's context, so you're referencing a newer government empower in Honduras that has, I'll let you fill in the gaps here, but how has their position about Roatan and Próspera and the ZEDE changed since in last decade.
[00:15:00] Gabriel Delgado: Yeah. So, the current government that took over in January, and won the election in November, basically campaigned – one of their big campaign issues was going against these zones. The outgoing government, their lead candidate campaigned pro these zones. So, again, I mean that kind of set the stage. They have a zero-sum game, and a subject that the more heated the campaign, the more they injected fear, uncertainty, and doubt. And sure enough, the opposition won, and one of the items to fulfill in their platform was to shut down the ZEDEs. And they did to new ZEDEs, but the three that exist are preexisting, and thus can't be shut down.
[00:15:45] Now, what we're trying to do very pointedly is we are a solution for Hondurans, and we're not a solution for any particular party in particular. We're here, it's a multi-deck project. We're here to drive a ton of investment over time. That's what this government needs and what any other government would need. We're trying to work with the government to show that, look, we're really part of the solution, and try to just make progress on that. We think we are making progress. There's so many positive things happening. So, yeah.
[00:16:17] Jackson Steger: Yeah. If time permitting, I might come back to some of this, like how to operate in with the political flipping and maybe a feeling of limbo that you might feel. But I really want to get into the how of how you're encouraging the investment and the development. So, I’m curious to discuss what it means to be a chief development officer. And I imagine that this is inclusive of the building and the real estate development on Próspera’s part of Roatan, but what else folds into that? How do you think of your role?
[00:16:47] Gabriel Delgado: So, my role is focused on two areas. The real estate development, which I was much more heavily involved the last two years, and business development. So, driving interest for people to set up and operate out of the zone.
[00:17:00] The real estate investment is fascinating because the way one of our business models works is you drive investment into the zone and that investment drives demand, and that demand then drives up prices of real estate and captures a lot of the positive externalities of a regulatory environment. But we needed to have an inventory because there was not a lot here. And so, we've been driving inventory significantly. Right now, we're on the fourth story of a 14-story building, 100,000 sq. ft. building, multi-use, mixed use building, nine floors of apartments, office space, commercial space. And if you join our Discord, there's a lot of talk about that in there. And so, with that inventory, then we can help drive companies to come and operate out of the zone more effectively.
[00:17:49] Now, my focus is precisely how do I bring more companies to the zone. And we have a number of really cool initiatives. If I can mention one that's my favorite, we're implementing just a bunch of events ongoing week after week after week. We're having one this week, just a wellness retreat. We have one next week, that's called Liberty Week. We have two more this year. One is a medical innovation summit and another one, that's a FinTech summit. And we intend to drive more and more events because we want people to come down, just experience a great vibe here, meet all these amazing people, and experience what Próspera is.
[00:18:24] Jackson Steger: That’s fascinating, and I want to talk about some of those different industries, but I’m curious on the physical development piece so far. On your website, you talk about wanting to be hub for sustainable development. So, what does it mean to have sustainable development? Why is Roatan the perfect place for this? And maybe you can speak to the geography of the island for listeners, but then also what's been built actually so far and then what's on the near horizon?
[00:18:51] Gabriel Delgado: Okay, great. So, to build sustainably, there's really two things we mean by that. We understand that Roatan is one of the jewels of Honduras. It's a Caribbean Island, there's things that you have to be very careful with, particularly water, any chemicals or residue or negative externalities into the coral reef. So, when we talk about sustainability, we're referring more precisely than anything to issues that can affect our environment in ways that are very difficult to repair. So, we have a number of initiatives on how to source water, and we have a very strong coral reef protection regulation. You come here and it's so beautiful, it almost feels like (00:19:29) to do anything to hurt it, you know. So, that's what we mean by that. And you asked about what it is that we've built so far and what it's that we're building?
[00:19:37] Jackson Steger: Yeah. How do you think about those different phases of development?
[00:19:40] Gabriel Delgado: The first thing we did is we built one building. We're so creative, we called it the Beta building because it beta-tested our system. And what we wanted to know was whether or not we could build with our own internal authority in terms of permitting and all those things. And it turned out we could, and it was great, and it was superfast. That building, we turned it into an office space, we filled that out, and we built two more buildings. We filled those out. We have another building. We're filling that out right now. And then we started going for bigger buildings. We're building a 10,000 square meter multi-mixed-use building, as I was saying earlier, and the idea is that building is intended to drive more company office space, people to work out of.
[00:20:23] And it's important to note that the reason in a world where everybody can work from home right now or do whatever, but for Próspera’s regulatory environment to apply, you have to be within the zone. So, we have to drive office space. And then we're also building more residential space that is lower end, lower cost. So, if you're just in college, you want to come work here, the options on the island aren't very good if you're in that market segment. So, we're doing residential that is small, lots of shared space, but very affordable. $175 a rent per month. $275 a rent per month.
[00:20:57] The tower as residential, the rental starts at about $450 a month, probably up to about $800. Maybe the penthouses are going to go for $1000 of rental a month. So, what we're trying to do there is attract a bunch of young, energetic people to populate this place and bring their energy, their innovation, and their skills both from Honduras and abroad, create a great mix of them. And we have that whole thing mapped out and master-planned out.
[00:21:26] Now, we also have a location on the mainland. Can I talk about that for a second? Okay. So, we have a location on the mainland, and that's more, the objective of that area is to drive logistics, innovation, manufacturing, value add. So, you can think of our mainland location as our Shenzhen to Roatan being Hong Kong. Everything's a lot cheaper on the mainland. Power is cheaper. Building materials are cheaper. So, we have both, and they work synergistically. If you're a foreign executive, you can live on Roatan and go work in Ceiba and come back. And if you're in Ceiba, which is on the northern coast, actually quite near Roatan, you can just work there and go work in the zone, or live in the zone and work out of the…
[00:22:09] Jackson Steger: Got it. So, now that we have a better image of some of the emerging properties on the island, I want to get into this framing as a platform city that we mentioned at the top of the episode. With Zach, we talked how Próspera’ is the classic example of the platform city characterized by the fact that platform cities provide the tools for customer residents to do with what they please. And if you agree with that framework, I'm curious, what are all of the tools available in the Próspera platform toolbox? I know you mentioned governance at the beginning, but what's the full suite of how you're thinking about that e-Próspera portal?
[00:22:49] Gabriel Delgado: I do agree with that characterization. I would say that's pretty accurate. What are some of the tools? Some of the classical zone tools, which are a low regime of taxation. Most zones attract customers through zero taxation or taxation after 5 to 10 years. Our zone, we do have taxes, we’re not a tax haven. The thing is our taxes are super, super low and reasonable, and they're designed in a manner that doesn't drive economic activity through bad incentives. So, that's one thing. That's one tool.
[00:22:49] For developers trying to build real estate, some of the great tools that we have is if you buy a plot of land, it comes with the development rights included. So, you don't have to go and apply for additional permitting. You just have to show that you're complying with the regulatory environment that we created for developers, which real estate in construction is what we call the regulated industry. So, there are certain standards that you have to meet.
[00:23:44] And the way we've set up that system is super cool. I can talk about that if you like. We have the Próspera Arbitration Center, which we've set up with the objective of providing dispute resolution at the fastest, at the lowest cost possible, with the greatest arbiters we could possibly find. So, we have some great arbiters from around the world, many ex-supreme court justices of states in the U.S. So, people that are going to drive confidence, you know, that a case is going to be tried fairly and resolved, so that all parties feel that it didn't take an inordinate amount of time and what's extremely costly.
[00:24:21] What additional tools? The most heavily regulated industries in the world – medicine, healthcare, construction, finance confined in the Próspera Arbitration Center, a pathway to get up and running and operating very quickly. The way we do that, this is alluding to my earlier point, is we have a 3-option way of being compliant with our regulatory environment. One is to just work off of common law. Much have been done through many hundreds and hundreds of years. First in the U.S. and then the U.K. With common law outlined, what it is that you could not do, and then everything else was basically up to you.
[00:24:59] Then we have regulatory reciprocity. So, for example, if you're a doctor in Germany, in Switzerland, in Spain, in the U.K., in the U.S., in Canada, in Honduras, you can show that you're regulated in that space. You have licensing, practicing licensing. You can choose that regulatory framework to be the one that regulates you, and then you can practice here. So, you can have doctors here just from any part of the 30 top OECD countries and Honduras, working here, and just providing a one-stop shop for medicine.
[00:25:30] Jackson Steger: Could that be like a medical tourism play?
[00:25:33] Gabriel Delgado: It’s a massive wellness and medical tourism play. You're talking medical devices, medical practitioners, research and development, just accelerated through our system. And Iran's Law, which is Moore's Law reversed, shows how there's been a slowdown in the amount of medicine and medical devices and medical products, if you want services, going into the marketplace mostly because of excessive regulation.
[00:25:58] And we do the same thing for construction. So, if you're a constructor out of Canada, you can say, look, I know Canadian regulatory environments, so I'm going to use that in Próspera. And we do the same thing for just a ton of industries that are what we call are regulated industries.
[00:26:12] And the last way you can operate is you can say, look, I like some things about the Canadian, I like some things about Honduran, I'm just going to build my own. And then you build your own regulatory environment, you propose it to the Próspera Council that deliberates, brings in experts for testimony. Then, that system is approved, and then you get to use it, and now it's available for anybody else that wants to come and use it. So, it's very innovative in terms of the rules that you operate in as an entrepreneur.
[00:26:40] Jackson Steger: It's fascinating. So, you've mentioned arbitration, taxation, incorporation. It seems there's another tab on your website here. On residency, you offer two different types, e-residency and physical residency. Could you distinguish between the two of these? And then also, if someone becomes a resident of Próspera, is there a path to Honduran citizenship available to them?
[00:27:04] Gabriel Delgado: Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned that because that's another tool in our toolbox. E-residency is a way for people that don't live in the zone, they live abroad, to make use of our legal environment, similar to Estonia who were the pioneers in the space. As a matter of fact, the Estonian team who developed the Estonian version of this are the ones that are building ours. To go to that website, you go to www.epróspera.hn.
[00:27:30] And our zone is really interesting. It works by operating under the principle of let's keep out the bad guys day one. So, to get a residency or an e-residency, you have to apply, and you have to divulge some information. If you pass, it's very simple, it's very quick. Within 24 hours, your application is approved, and now you get to use the zone by leveraging the regulatory environment. You can own a property, you can transact, you can sell, you can get financial services, and you don't have to be in the zone.
[00:28:00] Now, the difference between an e-resident and a regular resident, or a permanent resident, is just the amount of days you're here. If you're over 90 days in the zone, it's either 90 or 180, I apologize, I don't have that top of mind, but over that amount, then you become a permanent resident, and both our memberships, if you want, that give you the privilege of using the regulatory environment and leveraging everything we've done here. And so, it's renewable every year. So, there's a fee. And then it also allows us to go back and say, hey, you were in good standing when you came in. You've turned into a bad actor. Now, we're going to, you know, we joke, we're going to exile you from Próspera, but basically you won't be able to use the system anymore.
[00:28:42] Jackson Steger: This is all really fascinating, and I have some personal questions I might ask you after we finish recording.
[00:28:47] Gabriel Delgado: You bet. You bet.
[00:28:49] Jackson Steger: So, heading back then to the relationship between Honduras and Próspera, the news media has described the project as being in limbo. We talked about this a little bit earlier. What are the challenges that are posed by this limbo-ness? And how does the Próspera team approach building, knowing that political support or opposition for the project may change from administration to administration?
[00:29:24] Gabriel Delgado: Sure. So, there's a lot of rhetoric around the subject from the government officials driven mostly by the need to fulfill their “promise” that the ZEDEs were going to be repealed. And they got it done. They repealed the ZEDEs. I find it unfortunate because new ZEDEs can't be formed, but again, they can't go back and take away the ones that exist. So, all that rhetoric is rhetoric that causes a lot of uncertainty certainly abroad, but we, for us, it's business as usual. It's making it harder to get our message out than hopefully we would have liked it to be. And it's unfortunate because really the effects of that is on the Hondurans more than anybody else because the amount of investment that would come would be a lot greater if we were all aligned that this was a good thing.
[00:30:07] But we're moving forward. We're very bullish. So, short of the tank showing up at our doorstep and not letting anybody in, we're moving forward. We're generating a lot of inertia. And we know that our time horizon is much longer than any single four-year government. So, you know, we always knew we were going to have political opposition at some point. We got it two years into the project. So, we were just in the early stages of proving our model, which is unfortunately it would have been a lot better to have six or eight, or whatever, but we didn't.
[00:30:37] So, I believe that, as we survive this on the other side, we will come out bulletproof, and we will have proven out a system of reform that other countries are going to want to adopt because they'll see that the central government and the municipalities gain real value from this type of solution being in their country.
[00:30:58] Jackson Steger: How can you, especially thinking about Roatan specifically, how can you develop Próspera to reach all of the highest ambitions that we've talked about while still being mindful of the islanders that have been on the island for generations without being disruptive to the communities and ways of life that that they've built?
[00:31:18] Gabriel Delgado: Yeah, I think that's a great point. And as a matter of fact, one of the ways we're also solving for this situation that you were describing earlier of a hostile government is by integrating more closely with the local community. At the end of the day, what Roatan needs is more investment, more tourism, diversification of the economy because they were very heavily reliant on tourism, and when COVID hit, it was a massive problem because basically the island shut down for, I think it was 9 to 12 months, something like that. It was crazy. We work closely with the elites, the community that's right next to us. We employ, I think it's something like 50% or 60% of their employable population. There are some entrepreneurs from that community that are operating businesses inside of Próspera already, but some of these communities also have, some of the leaders in those communities have strong rhetoric against us, but it's rhetoric born out of misinformation or just political opposition. But I think most people, if you ask them, they would be thrilled to have Próspera next to them because we do drive a lot of jobs.
[00:32:25] Jackson Steger: Yeah. Thank you for that answer. I suppose I have one concluding question to take us out and take it any way you want, and also sometimes I say I have one last question and then I come up with others, but let’s assume this is the last question. If you were starting the Próspera project from scratch today, assume maybe just for the hypothetical sake of this question that the ZEDE rule was still in place and you could, if you were starting from scratch today, would you have done anything differently? Are there any lessons that you've learned that would have helped you develop faster or grow more quickly? Any changes?
[00:33:04] Gabriel Delgado: Yeah, we're actually in the middle of compiling a sort of postmortem list here, thinking of exactly that. But yeah, there are some things that we would have done differently. Though we did have the advantage. I participated previously in other projects. So, I had some knowledge. I think we would've been more diligent in certain areas. Like we did a lot of community outreach, a lot, especially with our neighbors, and the initial positive feedback that we got from the community was super encouraging. So, we were like, oh, we've done a lot, we've done enough. But I think probably we should have done more. That's a big learning experience. I think we should have engaged more fully with all political parties at the time. We weren't as diligent in that. And I think that, I don't know that we could have changed this, but I would have liked us to come out of the gate with more projects directly other than just Próspera making a lot of the investment. And I say, I don’t know if that would have been possible, but even in the communities that love the project, there's been a lot of skepticism. And the zones, you know, they have to prove themselves. That's the reality, is they have to prove themselves – are they going to survive long term, is it more risky to come in right now, it may be better just for me to wait and see what happens. So, I think those are some of the things.
[00:34:15] Also, the other thing, I think, I would have done is I would have tried to make sure that everything was in place and that we weren't in terms of our interfacing with the local authorities, so that we weren't spending precious time still resolving some of the issues that were open but that we were actually in build out face building rather than preparing to build. I would say that's it.
[00:34:38] Jackson Steger: That's a good list. And it did make me think of one further question. So, you mentioned, when we were talking about Dubai, how the U.K. Council, being part of that process, drove so much trust into the Dubai operation. And we've talked a lot about just the varieties of skepticisms that can emerge in projects like these. And you mentioned how you have the ex-U.S. State Supreme Court justices to help drive trust. What are other things that you think are going to be the biggest drivers of trust in the Próspera entity?
[00:35:12] Gabriel Delgado: The biggest by far is how much investment and how many jobs we generate. Without that, without really driving that, I don't think this project or any project of this nature can survive, because at the end of the day, that's what it's here for. It's to drive opportunities for Hondurans, for the entrepreneurs that set up the companies. And we have the very tangible goal of driving more Honduran entrepreneurship. But I think that's it. And why? Because when it's your job at stake, if the zone survives or doesn't survive, they are the ones that are going to be the most interested in the zone succeeding. And that aligns the interests of the promoter and organizer in the local communities in ways that nothing else could.
[00:35:52] Jackson Steger: Awesome. Well, Gabe, thanks so much for coming on the show. If people are interested in learning more, where should we direct them?
[00:35:58] Gabriel Delgado: Our website for sure, www.prospera.hn. Our governance website is www.eprospera.hn. We're on Twitter @ProsperGlobal. We're on Discord. And I think that's my invitation. But if you send an email to, I think, it's info@prospera.hn, we can get you invites into that. And I would say that our Instagram as well, Prospera Honduras or Prospera Global. So, you can follow everything that we're doing there, which I think is super cool.
[00:36:27] Jackson Steger: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the show and hope I get to visit soon.
[00:36:31] Gabriel Delgado: You better. You better. We'll be happy to host you.
[00:36:33] Jackson Steger: Cheers.
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