#34 Stranded Technologies with Infinita VC's Niklas Anzinger




[00:00:00] Jackson Steger: Hey there, you're listening to Campfire, a podcast where we interview leaders that are building new cities and other new ways to connect for digital nomads, creators, and remote workers. My name is Jackson Steger, and I work with Cabin to build a network city of beautiful coliving properties for remote workers who love nature.

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[00:01:58] And upon successful completion of a Cabin Week, you'll be granted citizenship. This is the best and most streamlined path to Cabin citizenship currently available. Now today's episode features Niklas Anzinger, General Partner at Infinita Ventures and host of the Stranded Technologies podcast.

[00:02:14] Infinita supports founders overcoming regulatory bottlenecks through startup cities, network states and crypto rails to unleash a new wave of technological progress. More in the episode. I brought Niklas on the show to discuss what it means for technology to be stranded, what his general thesis is at Infinita, what base layer innovations are, how to determine which founders have sound moral compasses, and how venture capital might be the right way to grow this startup space that we both operate in. Hope you enjoy.

[00:02:44] Niklas Onsinger, welcome to Campfire

[00:02:46] Niklas Anzinger: Hi Jackson, great to be here.

[00:02:50] Jackson Steger: Great to see you again. You and I grabbed lunch about a year ago now in Los Angeles, and so much has happened in this space. I think we were doing kind of like a comparing notes back then, and I think today we'll do more of the same, but would love for you to maybe give the 60 second arc of your career, especially like what you were doing before you were doing what you're doing now, and I'd love to just kind of connect those dots.

[00:03:16] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah, for sure. I started kind of as a researcher and policy analyst and went into Washington, D. C. think tanks and learned that this is not a very dynamic environment and change that I want to see is unlikely to happen there. Then I went to technology and entrepreneurship as a startup operator that excited me much more.

[00:03:33] I found that very dynamic and I learned the methodology of starting small, building a product that's better than the existing product. Start with a small team and eventually catalyze very large scale change. So now the transition to be an investor is really driven by the fact that I see this big trend happening right now with startup cities and network states and that I see myself as an entrepreneur that's using a fund to catalyze that change to bring what's going on to the attention of entrepreneurs that have just better options or optionality of having better legal guardrails in areas in overregulated technology areas where we need a lot of innovation to make the world a better place.

[00:04:16] Jackson Steger: Sure. Yeah. Let's talk about Infinita. So, if you were to articulate your core thesis, how would you describe what the fund does?

[00:04:25] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah. So, it's helping founders in these over regulated sectors— so health care and biotech, hardware and digital assets — and helps them utilize startup cities and Network States.

[00:04:37] So that can come in multiple different ways. They can go there physically as a launchpad, which is relevant in the hardware and then biotech. They can use it just as a jurisdiction where to incorporate a business that can be very relevant in the financial space, or they just have a community of early adopters there, like early customers.

[00:04:53] So I know Kevin, for example, in Prospera and I have been talking about doing things together. So, there's just a lot of, that's what you need as a business. When you start, you need a community of early adopters, and the residents, the leaders in this space are very pro-progress and pro-technology. So, it's just a very good field to get adoption and traction for your startup.

[00:05:14] Jackson Steger: Sure. Yeah. You, so you mentioned for the non hard tech folks, like the advantage of playing around with different jurisdictions and you write in folks get, I'll link it in the show notes, but you have a manifesto for your fund about base layer innovation. So, for the audience, could you describe what a base layer innovation is and how that relates to this broader regulatory environment that you're referring to?

[00:05:37] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah, yeah. And to set up at the context, if you look at the example of Dubai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Shenzhen, China, why did these places grow from poor hinterlands into wealthy megacities in a short amount of time? So, there's a consensus among economists that the difference is in rules and institutions.

[00:05:57] And these are like the legal base layer of society, right? So ,Hong Kong, did like a common law based legal system and Singapore and Dubai and Shenzhen, they had like legal and regulatory autonomy on a small space. And that is the difference between the poor and the wealthier parts of the world. Sort of getting that base layer right.

[00:06:17] That's the idea. The base layer contains things like the way to arbitrate disputes, for example, the legal system, how you treat businesses, how friendly your environment is to do business, and just how much constraints. There are on power, on like the governing bodies, like the worst cases of, of course, a dictator or like just a government that's abusing their power.

[00:06:39] So the base layer of society just mitigates or reduces the risk of abuse of power while maximizing the upside of people fulfilling their full potential.

[00:06:51] Jackson Steger: In this pursuit of Infinita to help uncover these base layer innovations. I know that you're very interested in things that we've talked about a lot on this podcast, startup cities, network cities, network states.

[00:07:05] So could you connect those two? What is it about like new versions of cities that you find especially appealing in the context of Infinita and in the context of stranded technologies?

[00:07:17] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah, I mean, just to give you an example, Zipline, which is the biggest drone technology startup in the world, I think they're valued at several billions right now.

[00:07:25] They didn't start, or their headquarters is in the United States, but they had their first commercial operations in Rwanda. Why is that? It's because drones are regulated like airlines in the United States, and it's very hard to obtain a license. So, it's a classic example of an industry under regulatory capture.

[00:07:43] The rules are made to benefit kind of entrenched interests and existing companies and incumbents have usually sided with the regulators to create rules that make it harder for competitors and for startups to enter. And that's something that even very developed countries with very sophisticated and good legal systems like the United States or Western European countries are vulnerable to regulatory capture.

[00:08:06] And that's why the new jurisdictions, including places like Estonia, Singapore, Malta, Portugal, they're trying to attract the kinds of like founders or businesses or like digital nomads that don't get from their jurisdictions, what they want or what they need. And I think that's a good thing. That's a healthy thing.

[00:08:28] Competition is something that has spawned a lot of innovation in the governance fields, Estonia being like a very good example as providing a better service to the government and digitizing the service and things like that. So, with Infinita, or with the movement of competitive governance, we want to create more competition.

[00:08:48] We don't necessarily have one libertarian utopia or something like that. The goal is more to create dozens, maybe even hundreds of new special jurisdictions, special economic zones, regulatory sandboxes that just put pressure on existing governments and jurisdictions to do a better job for their citizens. Otherwise they go somewhere else.

[00:09:08] Jackson Steger: I remember being in lockdown at the beginning of the pandemic and seeing the news about Estonia launching its new digital nomad program. And that's now about three years ago. Do you have a sense of like how that program has benefited Estonia, like in tangible ways, has there been analysis on its effect on the country?

[00:09:30] Niklas Anzinger: I don't know about that law specifically, no. I know that Estonia has massively benefited from tapping into that gap of the sort of digital nomads, digital residencies. So, I think that was hugely successful. I think it has like a hundred thousand people that using it. It's a very good source of revenue of income position.

[00:09:47] Estonia as a leader in innovation has spawned a tech and startup ecosystem. I think Estonia has now the highest VC investment per capita of any country in the world. Right. So that just shows you what's possible when you're willing to innovate on that front.

[00:10:02] Jackson Steger: Yeah. That also perfectly segues into my next question, which is specifically in the context of new kinds of cities.

[00:10:09] And you and I both chatted with founders doing different kinds of cities. There's folks like in Talent City Lagos that are doing actual new cities. And then there's things like Cabin and Afropolitan that are doing these sort of distributed neighborhoods or ideas across the world and others still.

[00:10:27] And we'll get to how you characterize the landscape in a second. But for these new city models in particular, is venture capital the best way to grow that space and why?

[00:10:38] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah, so that's something that comes from insights from Patrick Friedman, the founder of Seasteading and now Pronomos VC, which is a venture capital fund that was based on the insight.

[00:10:49] Yes, in the early stages, many of these projects do or need has like venture capital-like returns. So, the first couple of years when you need to build a team, when you build a legal system or build a community. When you follow the more network state like strategy, when you want funding and like the couple of hundreds of K's to the higher one digit millions just to develop that kind of traction and are able to get the kinds of agreements in place that you need to successfully start a city.

[00:11:18] He was admitting that there's a gap afterwards, right? So. There's not much happening in the growth financing space when it comes to new cities, there is much more of a black box on the one hand, you definitely need to utilize or get access to mainstream patient capital that's using real estate returns or pension or mortgage funds or something like that.

[00:11:39] So that's something that needs to happen later stage when you build a city. And there's probably a bit of a gap between sort of the early stage of venture financing side and that side that are right now, the projects that we're already familiar with will eventually face the challenge of crossing, but there's definitely something to be said that it seems broadly correct that the early stage to zero to one for many of these new projects seem to have a venture like profile.

[00:12:06] Jackson Steger: Gotcha. And, as a part of that manifesto, you also described several components to how you think about potential investments. And one thing you highlight is that you want to have an ethical exit, especially because you're betting on entrepreneurs that are existing in these strange new legal spaces with traditional legal constraints, that you want to bet on founders whose vision is guided by a sound moral compass and a path to legitimacy. Given that sort of like pioneering effort that you're trying to do there— how do you gauge a sound moral compass when you're having conversations with these kinds of builders?

[00:12:47] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah, I mean, to pick up why that's important again, it's a kind of a very new space. It's coming very from the fringes, from the cypher punk kind of spaces, right?

[00:12:56] Like many of the great new ideas that eventually became mainstream. So, like any new space, it's a bit more wild west. So that attracts also people who want to kind of abuse that. There's something to be said that exists, that happens in existing or mainstream places on a larger scale as well, because it's a very interesting book by Dan Davies.

[00:13:17] That's basically arguing when you have a high trust society, that's good. We need that for a higher volume of economic transactions and growth, but with higher trusts comes more opportunity to fraud and to scam people. So, there is a very high amount or higher absolute amount of frauds and of scams in existing high trust societies like the United States or developed countries.

[00:13:37] And that can often like protect themselves through like an air of legitimacy and following the law and malicious compliance. On the one hand, I'm a bit, you know, would it be a bit cautious to give like special attention to the new kid on the block, right? So crypto, for example, of course, you have a lot of scams, a lot of bad stuff there.

[00:13:55] But is it an absolute magnitude really better or worse than the existing mainstream system that produced something like Bernie Madoff? Or the financial crisis and the institutional sclerosis that sort of created much of it in the first place, as you could argue. So, on the one hand, I'm a bit hesitant to call out the new kids, the crypto and the network state crowd as in, oh, this is like especially dangerous for like scammers.

[00:14:19] That might not be entirely true, but at the same time, we just are de facto, there's a stronger looking glass on us. So, anything that's going wrong, any like medical treatment where someone dies and or like a financial fraud or scam or anything that bad actors are causing, it's just has a much higher impact on the— or can damage the reputation and perception of many of these projects, right? That's just a fact of life that any startups or new challenger is just held to higher standards. And we got to break through that by delivering a better product just to make sure it's actually safer and better than existing products or alternatives, which just means that we just have to be very diligent in sort of actually just making sure that mostly ethical actors are entering the space. And what they're doing is defensible. And we have clear idea and think about what happens if something goes wrong, just in the same way or better than existing jurisdictions. So that's the only way to develop a competitive enough product that eventually can get mainstream recognition, which is, should be the ultimate goal of the movement. I think. So, how do you guard that in people by spending a lot of time with them despite being alert and diligent saying what they do? It's in some ways obvious people have something to hide or not very open about what they do and don't want to tell you much about it.

[00:15:42] And people who want to gain your trust, they're very open and very transparent with you and think that's something affect also startup life or technology life, or just generally very good life advice is to just work with people who are like even painfully ethical that are making extra sure or have very strong moral convictions that they just follow, right, that they stick to the word, for example.

[00:16:05] So I think that's the precondition for us, again, for much technology and startups and new movements to succeed in general is to have higher ethical standards.

[00:16:14] Jackson Steger: Sure. Yeah. You mentioned crypto. As we record this, the Coinbase faces a hefty lawsuit from the SEC. Other exchanges throughout last year plus have been folding or cutting back their U.S. operations left and right. So, a lot of the projects in this space are built on or plan to be built on Crypto Rails. What makes you confident that Crypto Rails will continue to be relevant in the Startup City space? And how would you maybe contrast its future in the U. S. versus other parts of the world?

[00:16:46] Niklas Anzinger: The future is always over determined, right? So... Right now, I'm very worried about what's happening in the United States, which seems like a coordinated operation against crypto that seems to reflect the mentality of many legislatures, lawmakers, and policymakers in Washington, D.C. And I think that can do a lot of damage to crypto.

[00:17:08] That is not good. And I think that is a good reason for the start of cities or new jurisdictions to exist, right? And I think that's something that happened also throughout history when existing jurisdictions or governments or mess up, then you have somewhere else to go is like a disciplining or regulating force on the amount of abuse.

[00:17:30] So if there's enough other opportunities to go to, I think crypto is just a more efficient way to do money. It's an insurance against government abuse. They can print their own money. Like I think all the arguments are, most of the arguments are just very correct. I think we should run our financial system on crypto.

[00:17:47] We could just build better and more security features into it in a more decentralized way and not rely on centralized organizations. So, I buy that critique. So, it needs to exist and to make it exist, we need to well ensure adoption and ensure that there are places that accept the use of crypto as this legal tender who provide a safe space or a safe haven for people who want to transact in crypto and for innovators and entrepreneurs and builders to, to work on their projects, not being worried that they're shut down due to the capricious behavior by regulators or to like individual power mongers like Gary Gensler, who wants to use the mandate that they've given to advance themselves politically.

[00:18:36] Jackson Steger: All right. Thank you for the answer. I want to now start speaking about some specific projects that you've touched. So, we've had Prospera Dave Delgado on the show, who you introduced to me. And so the audience is familiar with what Prospera is doing. You are based in Prospera. And I'd love for you to explain what that means.

[00:18:55] What does it mean to be based in Prospera? What do you like about it? And do you own property there? I've been to Roatan, but it was 15 years ago. And so, what's it like?

[00:19:06] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah. So, right now the plan is, so my wife and I, we're buying an apartment in a new building called Duña. That's being built right now, expected to be finished in like late August or September.

[00:19:17] So it's a large condominium, it will have a pool, a co working space, and a gym. And it's very beautiful, it has fantastic ocean views, it's on this beautiful Caribbean island. And just coming to Prospera for the first time, I organized six conferences there this year, was to give people the experience, it's almost like entering the promised land.

[00:19:38] Like that's how I usually introduce it to people just because it's reality of it is almost just so visceral, like I, I read this like Scott Alexander article before and all these like new ideas when it comes to medical reciprocity and like common law and regulatory flexibility and wow, that's what this looks like.

[00:19:56] It's just stunning. And there's already really cool entrepreneurs hanging out and living there. It's very strongly populated by entrepreneurs from Honduras. So, both from the mainland, the educated ones, but also local Islanders who work there mostly as service workers. So, it's just a fantastic experience to go there for the first time.

[00:20:15] Really attracts me about it is also be among the pioneers in a new space, right? Imagine you could be when Hong Kong was getting started, like on day one. And like with many of the other entrepreneurs that want to build the place, that's just absolutely fantastic. I'm planning to spend four to six months in a year there last year and this year and next year together with my wife.

[00:20:36] The rest I'm nomadic just because there are so many places and communities that I want to spend time with and help create or spawn a larger movement. Next week I will be in a Cabin by the way. For three days, I'm also becoming a Cabin member and sort of my life is also quite diversified in this way with Prospera as a base.

[00:20:56] Jackson Steger: Awesome. So, like on the episode with Gabe Delgado, we talked about Dubai and Hong Kong as these analogs for what Prospera is trying to do. So, we get a sense of like the goal of Prospera, the ambition there. How do you think that we've reached that from a legal standpoint? Prospera's made its special economic zone, like it's in the constitution, they're waging the legal battles they have to wage, but for the most part, they've started.

[00:21:21] So now how do they grow? How do they see that rapid ascension to like their ambitions? And if you were to give them advice, how would you advise them?

[00:21:33] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah, something that I think many projects in this space learn is that it's very important to tap into local talent and demand because it's just the lowest switching cost with the highest upside for people in the same country.

[00:21:48] So for the kinds of like digital nomads like us, there's a couple of million and we're just not very. And also, for us, it's just a lower upside to move to some of these places, like compared to you're from Honduras, where GDP per capita per year is about 2000 and then Prospera, you can earn something like 20,000 or 30,000.

[00:22:10] This is much more to gain for that coupled with higher upsides. He has a couple of. Like really frontier minded entrepreneurs like myself or like the mini circles, the circular factories, the Seshat banks were also like international entrepreneurs from like the United States or Mexico. So that's also for that, but primarily I think you need to build demand and tap into local talent and labor pools.

[00:22:32] So that's the, I think the strongest requirement also for future network state and start up city projects. The digital nomads, whatever are not enough, they're a useful component and part of the ecosystem. They bring diversity, they bring talent, they bring capital into the space where they go. I'm a venture capital fund.

[00:22:49] I'm going to do the first ever VC investment in a Honduran startup. That's my contribution. I want to give to the country, so showing that through Prospera, we can create economic externalities and growth for the country. That's the ultimate test for us to succeed is that we're able to deliver on that.

[00:23:06] And nothing else matters even close to that, right? So even if we fail on the super most innovative biotech or whatever component, that's super core to us. And that's what I want to do, and we want to do. But if we fail at generating the spurring economic growth for Hondurans and providing opportunity for them, then we can't do the other thing as well. So that's like the basis where every project should start from to think about what's the positive economic externalities they create for the country that they're in. Right. Could you finally find that product market fit with that? Great answer.

[00:23:41] Jackson Steger: Great answer. Hopping over the Atlantic Ocean, let's talk about Zuzalu.

[00:23:45] So we've not mentioned Zuzalu on the show before. Could you just give the audience an overview of what Zuzalu is? What your intention was in going? How the event was executed and just general reflections so far.

[00:24:00] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah, sure. I talked with my friends from BetaDAO, which is a DAO that's funding basic science and longevity research.

[00:24:10] And I knew it was funded by Vitalik Buterin, the creator and founder of Ethereum and probably the second most important name in crypto after Satoshi Nakamoto, who nobody knows who he is. And he was saying Vitalik is very interested in like network stated set up cities. So, he wants to start an experiment, like a pop-up city in Montenegro.

[00:24:32] I was like, what? And like for two months, that sounds interesting. And I didn't know what to expect. Probably many people that went there ended up being really fascinated, both by his personality himself, by the theory movement as a whole, like I got to learn a whole lot about how they are using decentralized ways of organizing themselves and just by the quality and the density of the people that are attracted, right?

[00:25:01] So it was basically, if you'll summarize it, a pop up city for the duration of two months in a resort in Montenegro. And during those two months, we organized several conferences and workshops on like very deep tech crypto, like ZK proofs on public goods funding, but also on charter cities and network states or on longevity and biotech or synthetic biology.

[00:25:26] So that was just intellectually and personally very fruitful exchange of like a high density of talent and great people within a short amount of time. And it's hopefully, and on the verge of also spawning out to become something more permanent, not necessarily in one jurisdiction, although that's also an option, but have Zuzalu like camps or experiments in co living with a highly aligned community in several different locations around the world. And that was something that you're also very attracted to co living Jackson. Not sure what you've learned so far, heard about it, but I think it can teach us a lot in that space.

[00:26:09] Jackson Steger: Awesome. And then, so next I'm curious what is happening in Zanzibar related to everything we've been talking about and what you're doing there.

[00:26:16] Niklas Anzinger: Yeah. So, Zanzibar is like an autonomous government, right? It's literally called the revolutionary government of Zanzibar, but at the same time, it has friendly relations with Tanzania, the host country, and. I honestly don't know yet the history behind them. Curious to find out, but now there's two charter cities slash free zone projects there.

[00:26:39] There one is called Fumba town, which is kind of a more traditional charter city, just focused on real estate. The other one is called Free Flow Eden. And that's been started by the Threefold Foundation, which is a technology company that's creating the infrastructure for a new and for a decentralized internet.

[00:27:00] It's a massively ambitious, big project by a really visionary founder. I'm going to have my podcast soon. And he's getting a free zone in Tanzania on Zanzibar in a very beautiful location to have certain legal advantages arousing like trading digital twins and things like that. That's just a new addition to the movement.

[00:27:20] I didn't know about them. They didn't know much about network states and charter cities. I bumped into them. I was introduced by someone and we're like, wow. How does it that we didn't know about all of this? So, I want to introduce these new projects to the rest of the world, to others in the city building space, but also to the wider technology community, Web3 community in Africa, because charter cities and new jurisdictions, the Charter Institute is focusing a lot on Africa.

[00:27:50] So I think that's a good opportunity to invite people to see what's going on there and just, um, see to create, if you can create more spark to do more of these projects and bring it to the attention of tech founders to utilize these jurisdictions and see if we can replicate some of these successes and lessons learned from Prospera in Zanzibar as well.

[00:28:09] And again, I told them we need to make sure that we develop a very strong foothold of Tanzanians and Zanzibarians who benefit from these zones, who are finding employment there and has a product market fit with like local entrepreneurs and the tech community and things like that. I really hope this is like the next step in continuing or replicating the success of Prosper elsewhere and create more of these, more prosperous around the world.

[00:28:36] Jackson Steger: Great.As we approach close here. I want to give you a chance to just plug Stranded Technologies, plug Infinita Fund, or just otherwise give folks the call to action that you want to provide, but also you gave this great example of Zipline as just a situation where the jurisdiction change was necessary for Zipline to really innovate its product and develop a commercial opportunity in its earlier days.

[00:29:02] So any other examples, maybe in, in healthcare, education or energy that you want to highlight and then yeah, just however you want to frame a stranded technology or Infinita

[00:29:11] Niklas Anzinger: Yes. So, the stranded technologies podcast, Jackson Steger will be on one future episode. So, if you want to hear more from your host, then come to my podcast as well.

[00:29:23] The Stranded Technologies podcast is basically talking about the thesis that I have with Infinita. That's having better regulatory guardrails can create better innovation. So Zipline is a good example. I would just also add to that, that within existing jurisdictions, there's tons of regulatory arbitrage opportunities.

[00:29:41] So Airbnb and Uber are the best examples. Uber had to develop a very sophisticated regulatory strategy to become adopted and to get adoption. Also similarly tap into local beneficiaries and talent pools. So, it's not something that's only extra jurisdictional also within existing jurisdictions. There is a jurisdictional competition as many U.S. states, and as we also learned on this podcast from policy makers and from former regulators, there is ways to also innovate within the United States and sort of other jurisdictions that is just an additional optionality for founders and jurisdictions. I am going very deep into things like nuclear power, for example, and energy and drones on the hardware side.

[00:30:22] So drones, we already talked about the example, I invested in two drone companies, Orchid and Aerial Loop, and they're a bet on Latin America as the place where drone technology takes off, because they basically on top of using Prospera as a jurisdiction, Aerial Loop, at least not Orchid, they also got approvals and commercial licenses and have operations in Quito, Ecuador.

[00:30:44] And in Sao Paulo, Brazil. So that also shows that regulatory innovation is scalable, right? So, you can develop a regulation in Prospera there and have like operational and safety data to pick it up, just like Zipline has in Rwanda, and then go to other regulators and show them what you did. Which so the thesis make adoptions easier and more likely the same thing can happen, even though it hasn't yet happened yet with special jurisdictions with nuclear power.

[00:31:08] But I know from many of the project from the several guests, Brett Kugelmass and Carolyn Corcoran from Oklo and from Last Energy, they're looking at other jurisdictions. They are forced to just because it's too hard and takes too long in the United States. So, they're going outside of the United States in Brett's case to Poland, to Romania, and to the UK to get the first kind of next generation nuclear power plant approved.

[00:31:34] So similar to Orchid, they're talking to other jurisdictions around the world. So again, all of these are very deep rabbit holes. So, in healthcare, you could also talk for hours. There's already an existing system where, so clinical trials are often done offshore. I heard some statistics where it's 80 or 90% even of early stage clinical trials are done offshore.

[00:31:54] Just because the bureaucracy of the cost is just way too high in the United States. So that's already an existing market. We can innovate even further and add on top things like medical tourism. So, in Prospera, for example, we're building a regenerative medicine hub led by a very successful biotech entrepreneur, Greg Nakagawa.

[00:32:14] He’s building like manufacturing capability, we have a stem cell clinic, there is building surgical capacity, and it just has direct flights from the United States. So ideal for like very high end longevity, modern therapies. So that's just the option space that we're providing just in all these overregulated areas or industries, we talked about crypto hardware and biotech and healthcare just because we need it, right? The science and the technology allows us to do so many great things. So, it needs that base layer innovation to set that innovation free and benefit all of humanity.

[00:32:49] Jackson Steger: Awesome. Niklas, really appreciate you coming on the show. Can't wait to have this conversation again soon on yours.

[00:32:54] I'm sure I'll see you at a Cabin neighborhood or other pop up city soon.

[00:32:59] Niklas Anzinger: Fantastic. Thanks so much for having me on the show, Jackson.

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