“When you are dead, you do not know you are dead.
It's only painful & difficult for others.
The same applies when you are stupid.”
- Philipe Geluck
“When you are a bot, you do not know you are a bot.
It only makes meaningful engagement in Warpcast painful and difficult for you.
The same applies when you are a human without a Power Badge.”
- Edward Carpenter
On Monday, I was a bot, but I did not know it.
I did the things which a human might do – I bought Warps and started a channel, /writeonchain - minted art from frends, liked and commented on the same. I posted photos of landscapes and my foster kittens.
I created memes from scratch, bought a subscription NFT to the /memes channel using HyperSub, and complained to @nonlinear.eth via DM when it did not work as promised to lift my ridiculuous contributions from the obscurity of slums of “Recent” to the hallowed halls of “Main.”
I created a Paragraph account, wrote a long article on the advantages of various Web3 writing platforms, and cross-posted it to my other Web3 writing platforms. I got scolded for my wife for spending too much time doing things that were NOT querying blurbs for my upcoming book IRL. I posted a photo of the blurbs I needed to send out in /commitments, and then I got 3/2 done and ended up watching Bridgerton. Extraordinarily non-algorithmic and illogical behavior for a bot, I admit – but I didn’t know any better.
Then, out of curiosity about why my casts seemed to have such low reach, I tried the “Bot or Not” action – and the “good” bot explained the problem. I was a bot – a bad bot.
Maybe it was right! Maybe I was not human – because my first reaction was:
So, I queried the wise humans and powerful humans on the platform with a post in /founders and a query to the creator of Bot or Not.
I got some useful feedback from my friend Kristin:
But I got no response from @sayangel or anyone else in /botornot – rude, yes?
Well, no.
I happened to check my DM “requests” a few days later.
Another “good” bot had decided that the original “good” bot’s DM to me was the work of a “bad” bot and had hidden it.
Well, OK… and that bot had decided that I was still a bad bot. But I could prove my humanity with a short CAPTCHA, so, existential crisis solved, right?
Wrong.
One of the several problems with the Warpcast app on Android is that clicking on the solution box in the CAPTCHA screen closed out the screen on the Android app.
In the Ash-bot’s mind, I would remain a bad bot until I could get to my laptop.
In my own world, I was busy nursing my wife through COVID, battling my own COVID caught as a result of the same, taking care of 3 foster kittens, and looking at a small farm where I wanted to grow sustainable vegetables.
Satisfying the Ash-bot’s curiosity would have to wait.
When I finally did get back to my laptop, I easily completed the CAPTCHA, and was told that I was a real boy (Pinocchio will be so jealous, I thought) – but my casts were still bland.
It seemed the Ash-bot was capable of subjective judgments. How very human.
But I didn’t have a lot of time to process my emotions – I was behind on writing a second post for the /writinghackathon about how to reach (and retain) the large Non-Farcaster audience – and one of the key issues, I thought, was how the current Warpcast system of Power Badges, $DEGEN tip distribution mechanics, the Main/Recent channel splits, and the erroneous labeling of some humans as bots needed to be tweaked in order to make the ecosystem more attractive to outsiders – and to make it a place where they would stay once onboarded.
I had some great discussions with @danicaswanson on the topic – all while doing more human things like testing negative for COVID, going to WICKED, nominating awesome female friends for an emergent NFT project, and keeping my streak in /itookaphoto going.
Apparently, my convo with Danica sparked some interest.
I’d suggested tweaking the PB system (currently driven, it seemed, by an algorithm no more transparent than any other social media algo) by giving current PB holders a time-bounded drip of PBs which they could award to accounts with whom they regularly interacted and derived value.
My suggestion did not sit well with some human PB holders.
My reply was that there was a “circular logic / Basttlestar Galactica problem here. We have PB accounts to weed out bots, but we know some PB accounts ARE bots. So we can't implement protocols more likely to bring in more human PB accounts because more bots might get in.”
That, I was told, was just the downside of being early. Me, a smol, non-badged account should not worry about such things and should just “Focus on helping the interesting accs to get their PBs instead.”
But it is, I observed,
I did get something useful out of this conversation – links to a guide for new users to better understand the ecosystem and to earn their Power Badge… Here’s another similar guide that I’ve also come across.
Meanwhile, more helpful advice was trickling in.
Just like that, my human credentials were again in question – this time, from what I assumed to be a human – but what, according to @ciefa.eth, could have been a bot.
The logical Vulcan was gone. Some very human emotions were beginning to roil, and I had to suppress the urge to let my inner Samuel L. Jackson loose on the keyboard. Instead, I drew a few calming breathes, and replied:
“That said,” I continued, “please don't make assumptions on how I naturally write. Go buy one of my books off OpenSea or Amazon, a poem off Objkt, read one of my Washington Post articles, my Paragraph or t2 posts.. Anything I've written on Medium.”
My interlocutor made an honest effort to mollify me, but there was just one problem.
At the end of our conversation, @y0b and I both acknowledged our belief in our shared humanity, and they provided a useful tip – add links to my off-Warpcast writing to my bio. Will the Ash-bot take that into consideration? Probably not – but it may inspire more confidence (or start some conversations) with the humans that I interact with.
For now, I stick by my guns – the current system of PB-by-algo, bots tarring both humans and fellow bots with the same brush, and inconsistent deployments of the Warpcast app across desktop and mobile platforms is holding the Farcaster ecosystem in general and Warpcast in particular back from achieving the goal of gaining and retaining engaged human users who make it their go-to app for prosuming quality content.
As for me? I’m still here, still human, still badge-less, and still bullish. Lets build.
p.s. Does my last line give the lie to my title? Technically, no… the week is not yet over. There is still time for the algo – or a human – to grant me the power of (if not Greyskull) than at least the purple badge.
This cast is purposefully casted only to my home feed. More and more people have a level 3 spam label (the worst one) and may not realize it but I’m seeing it clearly now that I’m not following anyone. If you reply to this cast and your reply is in the “Show More Replies” bucket, you have a Level 3 Spam Label. The easiest way to see this is to copy the cast using the button on the right into an incognito window and check where your reply is. If you have one, there is no way out except good behavior and hoping the spam algorithm reclassifies you over time. Change your behavior immediately. Only respond to casts in channels. The algorithm thinks you are spammy and you must do everything you can to make it change the way it sees you. Resources to helpful casts in the comments below.
Read this entire thread. It’s VERY important. Amazing insight into the Spam Algorithm directly from the Warpcast team. https://warpcast.com/v/0x403d7af7
such a banger thread 🤌
It’s full of such great intel!
ugh - reading up now and will be back! lol
Thanks for sharing! @pichi — quite a read
Fascinating right?
Older but still relevant info on what the algorithm considers “spammy”. Includes a tool to help check if you have the Level 3 Spam Label. https://warpcast.com/pichi/0xbf867ff5
Quite an experiment!!
It’s been crazy!
You are probably running the most number of experiments on the platforms. Let's continue our collab discussions once your reach your destination. Have a safe journey :)
Testing, testing 😀
I see your reply and got a notification!
🙌🏼 That’s a relief 💜
Are the warning working before the spam labels are given?
Not sure. Heard reports last weekend that lots of people got labeled right before channel changes!
But the spam rules were already in place before the channel changes, right? Weird and confusing.
I'm trying rn
If I’m below I’ll be pissed
I see your reply and got a notification! SAFE!
you’re not, and thankfully i’m not too 🔥
Thanks for sharing and spreading the word Pichi!
You are welcome! I see you and got a notification about your reply.
Just checked and I am clear thankfully 🙏
I see you and got a notification about your reply.
testing the label. pichi, thanks for your continued work on figuring these things out
See your reply and got a notification about your reply!
Love the energy in @ehcarpenter's retelling of his experience on Warpcast - how he was labeled by @botornot as casting like a bot, with "bland" casts and how his casts were hidden b/c he couldn't get a power badge. Most of us would probably close the app and never return at such an insult but not Edward. Seems like he didn't take it personally and I liked the humor interjected into his story. "As for me? I’m still here, still human, still badge-less, and still bullish. Lets build." https://paragraph.xyz/@degenaissancedigest/from-bad-bot-to-real-boy-to-power-badge?referrer=0xd5f45430f18f31fcb4b5129b618e24a9bafac1e3
@botornot is not built to insult anyone! Casting behavior is dynamic and there are /manysuchcases of people going from casting only emojis constantly to creating more thoughtful content! Love to see it. Feedback on making bot or not less harsh is welcome.
This was wonderful! Thanks Adrienne. Great morning coffee reading. Followed, hopefully we can give him some extra juice to get a badge (even though they don't exist now 😉) next cycle.
@ehcarpenter offers interesting content and is very supportive of others. I'm glad his experience and writing is being highlighted. With so few power badges offered, fewer than 2000, many quality casters will be without the PB. I make a point to check the recent tabs to connect with those who don't have the PB.
I've been making a point to reply to hidden replies. A lot of users are marked as spam that should't be... and umm... we all lost our badges last night, friend. There's a cast action, and it appears that yours is gone too. 😅
You lost yours! I'm so sorry to hear that. I knew I'd lost mine. I keep telling myself it doesn't matter, but ego.. 😏
Thanks, Adrienne! The funny thing is that I was literally JUST stripped of my badge... Maybe because I do strange things like question /founders who claim publicly that they don't participate in the social-token ecosystems here in WC... Started from the bottom now we back! 😅 https://warpcast.com/katwolfie.eth/0xbf5bd32e
some of your are worried you'll be misclassified as bots. which tells me you don't really know what moxie farmer bots look like. moxie farmer bots saturate cast replies with mechanical content, such as below. the markers: >casts too regularly (every five minutes, every hour, for 24+ hours) >casts are too regular (length, verbosity, emoji usage all drift together) >casts too often (wake casts 1000 times/ week; this user casts 1000/day) >is very poorly integrated (not followed by credible users)
there is also a CURIOUS lack of typos and other "human mess"
funny part is if one wanted one could made it so much better. they’re lazy bad botters 😹
totally fricken lazy. im pretty peculiar about typos...just bc, but that is just insane.
whoooooooah thaht eeeees so doap!
people who use grammarly:
I always knew someday a typo would’ve made me a better human🥲 Feels glorious
typo, thinko, fucko. humans are great.
It is interesting what people consider spam Spam = Quantity / Quality Even if you don't post much but quality wise it is shit, it is still spam. Of course, this solidifies as you increate the number of these. I think we need non-quantifiable (probabilistic / blurry) ownership to jump into the next evolution of social media.
it feels like we having a tug of war with bots vs somewhat low engagement users / new users and i feel like its as if we score some points against them but we can never get rid of them and every step we take it does hurt the community, sometimes only a little sometimes certain decisions were mistakes and get corrected eventually but i feel like there must be a way to go about it I just dont have the answers and i dont think anyone really does but its a super complex problem that the internet itself hasnt solved
two cents: > we will never remove them > bots are the majority on online agents already > humans will stay outnumbered > not every step injures human communities, that varies a LOT > mistakes happen, yup > the way to go about it is the way we're going about it: gradually, in the arena, with good judgement and clear, measurable goals.
I get ZERO engagement lol. I no like being labeled 🤖
be the mess you want to see in the world
I’m the Queen of typos so I guess that helps me stay away from bot like casts 🙈
until the bots learn to be less perfect
Good point. I will update my bots to add those back in. 😂
There's human mess, but gboard mess takes it to a whole nother level 🤣
I just passed the bot test lmfao. I have done 5 casts in 5 mins tho haha but then I’ll go a whole day without casting, mostly cause I’m sleeping lol
Also, if you are doing this, but you are not a bot, most users don't care, your replies contribute nothing valuable in practice. So, the problem is not if it's a bot or not, it's that this pattern, usually generated by bots, does not contribute to our farcaster experience.
yep. "engage substantively" if you want to do well here (make frens, make money, make anything rly... bring substance.)
would you say its best to just mute accounts that end up on that list that also feel bot-ish to you? not the people that have gotten caught up, but you know, the repeat offenders lol
On target, fierce cast! 🤙
mr. wake...do you have any opinions/conjectures on the spam filter implications of @microsub tipping (and other similar mechanisms)? lots of folks (myself included) are understandably concerned... (cc: @dwr.eth @v @horsefacts.eth)
is the worry something like: "microsub casts repetitiously on my behalf at programmed times. is there a risk this content will make my profile appear less human to spam arbiters?"
more like: the algorithm isn't *necessarily* filtering for human-ness vs. bot-ness and is relatively opaque, so it's unclear what behaviors are being penalized. many folks use other tools to automate casts every day, and many actually explicit bots don't get filtered as spam. i'm trying to gain insights on the topic wherever i can. i believe tipping is good for Farcaster and will champion the cause as such.
mfer’s agreeableness trait is off the charts.
yeah. robot needs 10% more "smart ass"
lol all these within 2 hrs😭
yea people have to start differentiating real spammers from professional reply guys..... i used to cast 280 times a day, which meant 1960 casts a week, but they were nothing mechanical sadly these days are gone
If this is what FCers should be worried about, a lot of people can take a deep breath. But there is still moxie jail which also good people seem overworried about but nobody seems to know what sends you to moxie jail for life.
i'm gesturing generally toward bot-like markers. i don't know specifically what airstack is doing BTS to manage it. my general remark is "if you're worried, take a look at your casting habits. if you're doing something like this... somehow... relax a bit lol" i suppose jason will eventually offer guidance for "false positives" or a redemption arc for "recovering farmers"
Agreed. Yours if very helpful for bot mania that a lot of good casting people are worried about and don't need to be. Thanks 🙏 and I see dan shared this and said well intentioned but ignored you can do occasionally which will still strike fear into everyone. 😀
Moxie is cool and all, but I changed nothing about how I act or cast on here since its inception. I shitcast and post cat pics, it might not earn a lot of Moxie, but I’m still having my own fun that way.
Reminds me of Degen farmers back in the day 😅 Nostalgia mode OFF
I'm still waiting for this explanation... really looking forward to hearing how a true decentralized protocol can imprison people. Without a trial. And at this point, with no transparency. Sounds more like your average CIA operation in South America than a day in the life on WarpCast...
We have automations in place to stop accounts that are clearly bots from participating in rewards. That’s all.
If you are only preventing "bots" then why would you write a post (clearly intended for a human audience) talking about "Moxie jail" - and why would you say that "people" might be able to buy their way out of that jail, which isn't something a bot could do? Or is the state of bots such that they can now read and parse warnings and independently purchase NFTs/FTs? (This is a sincere question - perhaps the state of the art is progressing much more quickly than I thought) And still waiting for @ipeciura.eth 's explanation, BTW... his feed seems to consist of nothing but "Fan Token auction wins" posts... 🤔
there is an automation running that puts someone in moxie jail when the automation picks up that they are acting like a bot sometimes (altho rarely) real people get caught in the automations and they appeal to us with eloquent mia culpas such as attached; we review them i'm not sure what else you need?
you can earn rewards today with Moxie by creating great Content (casts) that other people appreciate you can earn rewards today with Moxie by creating great Frames that other people appreciate you'll be able to earn Moxie rewards soon through many other Farcaster apps in novel ways what you can't do is earn Moxie by spamming for farming. (A) we have aggressive farm-checks in place that are automated. You hit one of our triggers and you automatically go to Moxie jail. (B) Warpcast has their own spam controls which will get triggered if you're not adding value Key Points: 1: Add value, gain value 2: Detract from the experience, lose privileges
btw, 267 users were automatically placed in moxie jail in the past 7 days we are serious about it
@ipeciura.eth will explain what it means to be in moxie jail we could also potentially allow people to stake (by owning FT's) to get out of jail, but tbd
bail is the term you are looking for.
ayo any api/data to check if a user is in moxie jail?
jason, im innocent
Love to see it Sends clear and direct signals to those with bad intentions, no wiggle room
what happens when you’re in moxie jail?
Your interactions are not giving out Moxie to anyone.
Will the list ever be made public? Is there a Dune report for this?
We are considering this.
how do we know if we are ones in jail?? curious??
Thank you For asking what we were all thinking!
Your interactions would give 0 moxie.
Good job bro! Although I feel like some of us might adjust our way of interacting. Lemme explain: If I wasn’t saying casts from one of my favorite casters what I used to yo was: > go on profile > leave a lot of likes I’m sure that this today will mean insta jail. Correct me if I’m wrong
No, liking something is not going to get you in trouble :)
nooo broo this is not ok!!😑😑
Um, please kind cooker of development goodies, I implore you, take me out of moxie jail!!! 😏🤣🤣🤣🤣 https://media3.giphy.com/media/YnQWBOGVavTFK/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952ch0lv1mpemq9ofecgdmro6c9gvn2s6opk19j1bnf&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif
What does it mean "moxie jail" ?
What are the names?? 🧐
What's the default incarceration period? I think having a colling off period instead of terminal jail will help people who may have triggered the thresholds because of lack of awareness. If there's a place for second chances, it's here.
At the moment is permanent, unless appealing to me directly. Which has happened and I unflagged several affected accounts.
Where can we see who is in Moxie Jail, and do you notify users who are placed in it? I like how you're policing it; we boom on.
This whole system seems crooked to me?
It's not public yet, but their interactions give 0 Moxie.
wonder what moxie jail is
wonder how you guys will deal with false positive flags tbh.. but well
how do they get bailed💀?
Appeal to the highest Moxie court - me
sir when will this event end? or this will never end If it never ends, will there be a reduction in moxie income distribution in the future?
there is a way to know (like a frame) if one user is in jail?
I don't think this is good!! I think farcaster is made to make people interact with each other, build on the platform, connect with great photographers, great artists, and make friends like no other place, and most of all be rewarded for that!!! What i have seen since I joined, like 80% of the people are here, just because they are able to earn some $, something, even if it is a small thing, but they earn it true they're engagement, time and efort each one in his own way... So let's be serious we are here All To Earn!! We are All here to Learn!! We are All here to connect!! We are All here to enjoy art,meme,photography, tech ,politics and much more.. But we are here because they promise payoff engagement... so let's not fuck that up!!! Like Degen started to do and we all sow the results. Let's teach people how to interact and how to make better content, etc.. We are here to learn, create, and grow together...
anyone should be free to replay the way he wants to and be punished for that. I mean, cm on y cal tell when someone is a bot or not, it is not that hard, so if the content creator sees that the guy is a bot, he doesn't have to answer...
How is tipping people detracting from the experience? I’m beyond frustrated with all the rules that seem to only affect to people trying to come up. This feels more and more like authoritarian socialism designed to make the rich devs richer and keep down accounts like mine and my friends trying to genuinely build community. Why can’t I continue tipping my friends ham without worrying about being shadow banned or marked as spam. Pretty sure I already was. I’ll be happy but surprised if I get a response. I’ve been shaking my head ever since degen season 3. It’s like the creators and devs in charge want this to be their app. I’m getting ready to just let them have it. We can block people if we feel we are spammed by them, right? Why we need someone banning them for us? What if we appreciate the content. Waaaay too many real people are basically getting labeled bots and I’m about done with the whole damn thing.
Great call!
really cool
Great to see a quick response instead of pretending it isn't happening 👍 will be interesting to see how people adjust and where they look for easy money now
I love how thoughtfully the moxie system has been designed and rolled out. Huge respect for what you folks have built in such a short time. Really impressive - can't wait to see what else is planned but not yet rolled out :)
Any chance these guys went to moxie jail today? 🙏💖 https://warpcast.com/smokingfrog.eth/0x429d862d
Will i go to jail if i meme about it?! Cz I have a banger in my gallery that could get me in trouble.
* BONK *
any plan for dumb questions? 😂
It's becoming clear we need a higher bar for tipper eligibility. Too many tippers are bots or very low-quality users. I'm doing some research to determine the best way to address this, but requiring every tipper meet an OpenRank threshold is the likely the most straightforward solution. Feedback welcome.
I like this. at this point the bar doesnt need to be very high while price and incentives low, but expect bar to need to become higher as that changes. Age old problem of spam keeping costs just high enough to keep out bad faith actors.
DM’d my opinion. Thanks for asking feedback.
Well we should give tips to people who have low Openrank (but that should grow), but if these people like the Farther project, they will not be able to tip, exactly cause they have low Openrank?
That's true, however the openrank stats for high quality users improve very quickly so I don't think it presents a problem. This is especially true for the openrank following ranking, which is what I'm planning to use for the tipper eligibility.
Okay we need to clarify that What is low or high quality? Show us an example or some hint of courses we don’t like stats frame or sc all around channel but what we can do more? When there is no attention to other casts?!
I’m okay with any changes you need to make, but I need an easy way to see this data. I’ll trying my best to tip new accounts but I’m getting a few “don’t qualify” messages. If there was a cast action that pull all this info, I’d love it. I want to see their open rank, maybe delta on if it’s gone up, if they have an allowance, etc.
yeah a new frame that gave some data for selecting tippees would be nice, open rank, date created, recent open rank change, fid, amount of farther red’d, etc @compez.eth
oh and have i tipped them before this round… and just y/n eligible and why not.
I think I missed the guide for tipping points ranking.. is there a metric you can send me?
I tried to tip an artist friend who has less than 100 followers and it was really disheartening that I couldn't.
Yes, fantastic! Low-quality users tend to dump on claim days - they are not in it for the long term.
why are you changing things daily? you're making it very difficult to keep up with what's going on
If open rank introduces. Dnt disqualified them. Maybe they are new users who buy 100k farther just to engage themselves here. I believe with open rank there should be a quality check.. and Allowance should be distributed accordingly. Still the project in early stages let more people enagaged with it.
So, there ARE bots that hold the Power Badge... this goes to the root of the problem I wrote in my last post on @paragraph: https://paragraph.xyz/@degenaissancedigest/from-bad-bot-to-real-boy-to-power-badge
Witches + Creators = the kind of collaboration that I love to see - and which Web3 makes possible.
Thanks for recasting Edward 🖤 you’re a real one ✨ 1111 $degen ✨
Thank you! 😊 Very kind of you to say - and as I wrote earlier this week, not everyone (human or AI) shares your opinion! 😅 https://paragraph.xyz/@degenaissancedigest/from-bad-bot-to-real-boy-to-power-badge
If you're a bot, you're the most human bot I've ever met—more human than most of the big accounts here that seem so pumped about everything. 🖤
Btw that’s what pops up now when I check if you’re a bot or not, human cast machine ✨
I love this paragraph Funny and also real, i had to make sure to go through every page. It is indeed sad how non power badge holders are seen on warpcast at this point, but i have to say it was really not like this 2 months ago or anything of a sort, or rather i was able to get in touch with good people who actually saw my replies. Even Dan has mentioned that many are not bots on here either, but in the fight to filter out bots it has affected so many other people and it really forces many to give up on the idea of being on here, cause after getting the badge, we strive to keep it, some have lost it and they just got tired honestly, i still don't know how i got mine fr. The bot or not frame really needs more work, I've got friends on here too, it's more like they beg to be seem at this point, it's annoying. I hope the degen season tipping system that will be implemented next season helps in bringing light to even non-power badge holders to light 100 $degen 💜
I've just pulled an all-nighter in Australia, but I'll make sure to read, share, and discuss everyone else's work in the next day or two... meanwhile, here's my second and final essay for the hackathon - looking forward to seeing what other members of the team think. https://paragraph.xyz/@degenaissancedigest/from-bad-bot-to-real-boy-to-power-badge
gm from Oz... here's my latest writing from the /writinghackathon : https://paragraph.xyz/@degenaissancedigest/from-bad-bot-to-real-boy-to-power-badge